Full episode transcript below
In this pilot episode, an overly-excited Geoff Wilson is joined by the eloquent Guy Thompson to dive into dive bars to explore what design considerations influence both the bar patron and bartender experiences.
This podcast concept is the byproduct of Geoff’s attempts to encourage junior UXers at Auckland design meetups to worry less about finding a role in a digital company, and instead begin to notice the wealth of customer and business improvement opportunities found in our everyday interactions.
So, barkeep, pour us another round as we spin this yarn!
Originally recorded on 23 Nov 2020.
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And as always, just remember, you don't have to have a fancy job title to start noticing and improving the everyday experiences wherever you work...
episode Transcript
Geoff Wilson [00:00:05] Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Experiences podcast, where we uncover potential design improvements in the world around us by exploring one frustrating experience at a time. I'm your host and Chief Observer, Geoff Wilson based out of Auckland. And joining me today is Guy Thompson, a Kiwi based in Melbourne. How's your day, Guy?
Guy Thompson [00:00:22] Very good, Geoff. Thank you. I'm still working from home in Melbourne. I'm going to get back to the office in probably a month or two's time, so just slowly starting to get back into the new habits that I'll need when I'm in the office. For example, I can't just have naps on the floor; I'm going to have to find like a meeting room or something if I want to have a nap during the day. You know, these things are important to think about.
Geoff Wilson [00:00:42] The business should want you to be performing at your best, and sometimes you need that 10 minute eye close. You know, I think it's very fair statement.
Guy Thompson [00:00:49] Exactly. We didn't used to have like a lot of couches and stuff spread around the building, but now they've been replaced by lots of Agile kind of coworking, shared spaces and lots of pop up desks and standing desks, all that sort of stuff, so you can't go and have a sneaky nap anywhere. I think you're going to have to be honest and like, "I'm a bit sleepy right now. I'm gonna have a nap for five minutes and then get back to it." You know? Haha
Geoff Wilson [00:01:10] I think that's already... Man, only one minute into this and I'm already like that's another podcast episode someday. It's just the culture around again, performance and things like that - we'll save that for another day. So, for this episode, this pilot episode we're in, I've been thinking a lot about bars lately. Mainly because it's been my go-to example when trying to explain to researchers, developers, product owners, GMs, students that there's more design opportunities out there than just working on digital interfaces. You know, websites, apps, kind of most of the things I hear about at the Meetups I go to. And the way I see it, at least, is that, you know, digital interface might be a solution to improve something, but in order to improve it, you've got to know what's actually going on. First, you've got to notice the things that people are trying... that could be better. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on that to begin with of kind of what we're doing here and what this podcast is all going to be about?
Guy Thompson [00:02:01] Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense because I think a lot of people will overestimate how much, I suppose, aesthetics and craft and design goes into the process of coming up with a design. And for me, I've always been a really analytical and curious and observant person, and that was where my strengths were as a designer. Other people were fabulous at the aesthetics and the, you know, the style and the trends and all those sorts of things. I was far more interested in: What does it do? Why why do we need it? Why does it need to be different? Like how is someone gonna to use all the different use cases and the ways that that product or that system or that area, if it was a space or a piece of signage, all those sorts of things, I was just fascinated about how things worked and why they work in a different way and of course, how that can be improved. And that makes it really easy to see when they're done badly as well, because they just annoy you because, you know, you've thought about it before and you're like, "That could just be so much better. It's just this one little thing!" So, yeah, I think that's where my focus is for this, to discuss these things that we say and we observe and that maybe other people don't notice. So it's an opportunity to share that.
Geoff Wilson [00:03:03] And that makes me really quick, you know, completely aside from bars, I'm already off on a tangent, but hey, it's worth it for 30 seconds - umm because when we were talking about how to make this podcast or what it's going to be about, you know, we use the example of like, well, noticing taxis for the rise of Uber. So how did Uber rise up? And we weren't in the boardrooms. We didn't sit there with Uber. And a lot of what we talk about the show, we're probably never going to be sitting on those kind of groups, but you know, we might be talking to people over time. But just being a user of a taxi, you've got some immediate things that just never really work. Well, if you sat there and thought about it a lot, like you've got to stand on the street corner and wait for one to pass by and try to wave it down. So you've got to wait to see if one even comes. Then there's a whole light on top to see - does it mean if it's got a passenger or if it's available? You have no idea. And then also, once you get in, you have no idea what the cost is going to be, whether a mile down the road. So what are the two things Uber did is they noticed those kind of things. Or, I'm speculating that they noticed those kind of things. And they said, well, one, we'll make the taxi come to you so you don't have to worry about it. It'll be there when you want it. You stand there at the corner waving. And, you know, we'll tell you a price estimation up front. So already two of what might have been the biggest pain points that might have stopped people from, you know, or that convinced people to stop using taxis might have been right there. Or at least that's how I see it. Again, all speculation. But it's that kind of mindset that that really drove this kind of conversation. Right?
Guy Thompson [00:04:22] And I've got a small tangent for you there as well, which is starting something around, I suppose, the evolution of where something comes from as well, because it's a digital product. The use case for that can change and pivot very, very quickly, depending on what users actually need. And my understanding is that, you know, Uber and Lyft really started as ridesharing, that people in Silicon Valley were paying really high rent, those who were driving to work and maybe had a free car park where, like, I wonder if I can pick up something or someone on the way and they can pay me a few dollars. And that makes it more affordable for me to own a car in the city and takes advantage of the fact that they've got free parking. That was the use case initially for, you know, a few hundred users and then it kind of evolved into an entire business. I'm sure when they were starting out and hacking away and trying to build a piece of software, they didn't think they could have a worldwide urban transportation network with people just logging on and dropping people off. So I think often we'll look at something when it's really big and it impacts lots of people, and sometimes that's not how the thing starts. And I feel like sometimes there's embedded... not flaws? But oversights that are still inside the design of something that kind of go with it for a long time, especially if it's a physical thing in the real world. But often with the digital product, those things can get removed and moved around very quickly. The user interface can change, but the user interface for door handle or a shopping trolley, that's fixed, you know, that's only going to change every 10 years or so. So very different kind of things.
Geoff Wilson [00:05:46] This is how the show is going to go. It's going to be a bunch of tangents, or the way I like to call them "linear tangents" because they're all related. So anyway, do you have anything particularly great or frustrating to start us out on just bars, like the experience of going to a bar?
Guy Thompson [00:05:58] I think the thing that I've noticed about going to bars for a long period of time is that everybody has a completely different approach to the sorts of drinks that they serve, the kind of food that's available, whether or not what you're ordering is off like a special menu or the standard kind of fare. And for some people, they know exactly what they want when they turn up and other people, they just want to kind of just, "Surprise me. I want to try something new this time." And it's difficult to design all of that into what a bar has to offer if it's in the signage or a menu or any of the labeling system that they use in the bar. And depending on how busy it is, it's difficult to ask them for help or advice or tips on what you'd like to get. One thing that I've noticed happening now is that as we've come out of the pandemic, Melbourne is sort of open for business, but the restaurants have had to adapt really quickly so that when you go into a bar, you scan in with a QR code on the table. The person who directs you to the table says, "I'm basically going to leave you here. And everything from here on is up to you. It's electronic. It's on the table."
Geoff Wilson [00:06:59] Is this like, I trying to see it right... is this like when I think of the McDonald's, right? You walk into a McDonald's, you press the keypad. Is it like that but on your table?
Guy Thompson [00:07:07] Some bars and restaurants will have an actual PayPass electronic transaction unit on the table, like a Square or Swipe or any other kind of terminal. Others will just have a QR code and then everything else happens inside your phone. So the payment screen, Apple Pay, entering your credit card information, the browser that's got the menu that's available, the specials. All that sort of stuff will all happen on your phone. So the advantage is that you are carrying your own digital signage system with you into the bar and restaurant and you sit down and you navigate yourself and you do it.
Geoff Wilson [00:07:39] And because of that, that's kind of one of those things that you said drives behavior. So for me, like tomorrow night, I'm going to a pub quiz tomorrow night at the Lumsden, my favourite bar in Auckland, or one of my favorites, or at least for pub quiz. And the Lumsden is still definitely that traditional kind of bar then. So the kind of good parts about that is you can't just walk up to the bar and order your drink or, you know, buy one for your mate too. You pay there, take it back. Because I know during COVID, it actually got like the American system just like you're saying of - and I say American of like the way we all dine there - is, yeah, a server comes to you during COVID, you ordered through them and then at the end of the night, you've got this three hundred dollar tab and you try to figure out who had what. And it's just... I hated that! It's like, that for 30 something years, I lived with that! But I just I've been loving it since I've been here in New Zealand. Just walk into a bar the old fashioned way, ordering what I want, going back not having to deal with any hassle of any kind. I love the system, you've seen a lot better.
Guy Thompson [00:08:31] That's a really good point. I think that was something that surprised me about the way that service works in New Zealand and other countries as well, that sometimes in a bar or restaurant there's a focus around the server that looks after that table. And the person working at that restaurant or that bar is like, "That's my table." Because there's obviously, in most cases overseas, especially in the States, there's a tip associated with looking after that table. Whereas in New Zealand, there's not really a culture of tipping. It's definitely an optional extra. It's not really built into the bill. And if you if you get presented with the option to tip at the end of the night, either on the return receipt or on the electronic terminal, you don't really know where that tip is going. You kind of go, "yeah, I think my serving person is over there? Are they going to get the extra ten dollars or whatever? Haha
Geoff Wilson [00:09:18] Somebody you've never seen before that comes up at the last minute. It's just, it's just all over.
Guy Thompson [00:09:21] It's totally fragmented. So the idea of like saying, "Cheque please!" and they come back and that's the person that you pay, that's all kind of completely changed and gone out the window now as well. So be interesting to see what happens. I think it would change a lot slower in the States? That's definitely something is really ingrained into the into the culture there. So be interesting to see and travel again and see how it's different.
Geoff Wilson [00:09:41] To anybody back home listening to this, not having to tip, or having it all included basically because your server is actually well paid, is a great thing! Having the tax already included...
Guy Thompson [00:09:52] Let's put a really short caveat in there that the minimum wage and each of the states and each of the countries we're talking about are vastly different as well. So that's one of the things that's built into a tipping culture. So not to pick on anyone or take anything out. But hey, we'll try not to be too politically correct.
Geoff Wilson [00:10:07] Ehhh burn bridges right from the start, why not? Hahaha. So let's say it is the old classic way, like tomorrow? I don't have the fancy digital stuff yet. You walk up to a bar. Depending on what the bar is like, you've got to get the server's attention or the bartender's attention. And that right there, it's that first moment to me... and maybe it's the Moment of Truth. Maybe, you know, we talk about that a lot in customer experience design and journey maps and stuff, is what are those moments of truth? And what are those things that could make or break that relationship, that experience? And in this case, that might be one of those first points of how do you get their attention? Because you can have multiple types of bar. You can have a cocktail bar where it's, you know, very slow, very fancy. You don't really need to worry about a line. Or, you could have a sports bar with 20 something people - and, you know, already right there, I don't have the solution for it and that's what I hope people listening to this will come up with - but just that idea of, you know, trying to like... Are you waving cash? Are you waving your hand? Are you trying to give the eye to that server like, "Hey, hey, come see me next!" Are you... not going to go into clothing choices and things like that, but there are other ways you could try to convince people haha.
Guy Thompson [00:11:05] Ha, yeah, to get people's attention. I think it's a fantastic you know, it's a fascinating comparison there around the fact that if you are in a quick service or a fast food restaurant, speed is everything. So you need to know exactly where to stand in order to place your order. And if you're not at the front of that particular queue or standing in that spot, people are basically going to ignore you because that's what you have to stand to get served. Whereas I find in a normal bar environment, it's a much more casual sort of thing. And there's a little awkward dance you have to do, is to... where am I supposed to stand? And when it's really busy, you know, trying to work your way through a crowd and trying to be strategic. And I think that's a fascinating thing that's changed. Now, you think of going into a bar when it's really busy and it was like three people deep and you're trying to squeeze through and kind of time it so you can like nip through the and then get to the front and then kind of and then still try and get someone's attention. Now, like, I think people are naturally still going to be conscious about social distancing. And as soon as you accidently bump shoulders with someone you know, are you too close?
Geoff Wilson [00:12:10] And then, yeah, just the whole thing of like we've got to stay in line. So it's like, you know, it's kind of like... like, I'm trying to relate it to other things. Like where else do we have queues and how have they solved it? And it's like something like, you know, a butcher, right? Maybe it's just - pure speculation - it's like, well, what if that would work of a ticketing system where you're just like, oh, take your ticket. But then if you're serving people quickly, it's not really a thing? It doesn't really add any extra value? It just makes that... I mean, and that adds its own complexities of paperwork and tickets and counters and rings and bells and it would all breakdown immediately in a bar setting... So, good! Already declined one idea there!
Guy Thompson [00:12:43] Hahaha. Yeah, it's weird, like because I've done it in before going into a deli and not realising that they had like a paper ticketing number system and kind of standing kind of like attempting to get someone's attention. And they didn't even point and say there's a ticket thing! I just eventually realised that five other people had taken tickets. And I'm like, "Well, I guess I'll take one." And then my number's like thirty three. And someone says it's like seventy nine for the number. And I'm like, yeah... are the numbers even in order? Hahah. At least five different rolls of numbers. And I'm like, I don't even know if the system works. It's a mess! Haha
Geoff Wilson [00:13:17] So things not to do at a bar. We've already solved one right there.
Guy Thompson [00:13:19] Yeah, tickets, let's not have that haha.
Geoff Wilson [00:13:21] And it's that point of design, right? Where it's like, don't just think of... don't just implement the first idea that comes to your head because it's not always a great idea. It's thinking - and like we just went into there - there's the numbers. There's where's the paper come from? Who loads the paper? Who's reading it out? All of those things need to be considered before you just jump to your first... Yes, you can be Agile. Yes, you could be iterative and stuff. But still give you time to ideate a little bit. And we'll leave that for another podcast to follow this one. That's my hope; it's that as people listen to this and go, "Oh, cool. There's an idea like standing in line - how do we make that better?" I don't have the solution. Maybe you do. One thing that you said that kind of made me think about it was, you know, you mentioned speed to serve. Well, what is your target metric here? Like, what is the outcome you as a business want? Are you trying to just do quantity? So just total number of sales? And in that case, you know, you don't really care who you're serving, who are you picking. If one person has been waiting at the end of the bar for five minutes for a drink, but you keep serving another, they might not care because as long as drinks are being poured and dollars are being rung up, that's fine. Whereas if you are like at a fancy or slower, you know, better looking cocktail bar, for example, or just a crafty place, whatever, you want that retention; you want that you know, that service, the people, that brand. And so if you were just ignoring people left and right, yeah, people might not come back and it might really hurt their reputation? Sports bars people might just go to just because the game's on.
Guy Thompson [00:14:39] That's a really good point. And of course, I haven't been a bartender before, so I don't really understand the pressures and the hustle that you have to do to do it. But I was always expecting a little bit more engagement with other people in the crowd. But I can understand that as soon - if I'm working behind the bar - as soon as I give one person eye contact to say, "Hey, how's it going?" I'm going to kind of annoy them that they think they're about to get served. So I basically have to keep making drinks, looking at nobody, until I've served the person I'm working with, and then I can kind of awkwardly go *snap* that's my next person. Haha. It's tricky to try and get people to wait patiently and say, "Hey, yeah, I'll be with you in a second. How's it going? How's your night?" That kind of rapport I was hoping for, but often you just get the silent treatment until it was your turn.
Geoff Wilson [00:15:21] Which, I mean, that's another whole thing that I'll just briefly touch on for that, right? So the servers' experience of how, yeah the bartenders' experience, of trying to actually make a drink and solve, you know, fulfill somebody's order. But then another customer, because people are all different. Maybe they started barking orders at you or barking like, "I want this! I want this now!" Because they either thought that you saw them? Or, that maybe they're just really impatient. It's not that anybody's right and wrong. I guess society can judge that otherwise. But at least on that side, there's this new complexity for being a server now. You've got to also manage this cognitive memory load of like people barking things at you while you're still trying to remember the three drinks that the last person ordered. And that's probably a whole thing, right there.
Guy Thompson [00:16:01] Exactly. And one of the one of the things that I think you and I probably cover a lot on this on the show is around the fact that we're talking about the transaction moment; that interaction moment where you're talking about what's the friction involved in making the transaction, understanding what's involved. How long does it take? How smoothly can it operate? But we're probably not going to be thinking about what's it like to work in that environment all day long from, you know, 7:00 till 4:00 in the morning and to deal with all of the hassles, all of the pressure and stuff that you would face in that particular job or working at a hotel or on an airline or any of these other kinds of jobs. We're really just thinking of the transaction friction and...
Geoff Wilson [00:16:43] Yeah, the operational side.
Guy Thompson [00:16:44] Exactly. Like the information that you need in order to make a decision as a customer, which is what we're sort of coming at it from and definitely not thinking of, like how challenging is it actually to be in the environment to deliver that service? So I definitely don't want to be mean or put anyone else on the spot. These are very, very tough jobs we're talking about. But what are some of the things we can think about that could make things a little bit easier just in those moments that are quite confusing where there's a bit of a grey area?
Geoff Wilson [00:17:09] Yeah, and I do have a perfect one that I'd like to get into basically about how does a bartender in this case actually get about making that drink? But first, in order to make a drink, you've got to know what you're making and so it goes back to the customer side of that experience. And so I'm on one side of the bar. I'm talking to you as if you're the bartender because I feel like there's a table between us.
Guy Thompson [00:17:27] What would you like to drink, Geoff? Hahaha.
Geoff Wilson [00:17:29] Yeah, "I would like, uhhh, what do you have on tap? Because, you know, I like Hazy IPAs, but I can't see which ones you've got?" There might be like four taps on one side. There might be four types on the other side. And unless you've got a digital menu or something really helpful or a printed menu... Printed menues are also good and bad because, you know, if you have rotating taps, it doesn't help the customer at all. Because the other day I was looking at one, I was trying to make my order fast and it said, "Oh, ask about our specialty taps." I'm still doing the thing. So it's like, it didn't really help me at all. It just distracted me, if anything, from actually looking at the taps. So, yeah, I'm trying to stand in line. I'm trying to look side to side to see what's on these different sets of taps. So if I get out of line, do customers behind me think I'm leaving? And it's this whole experience side right there; so just ordering a drink and trying to figure out what's available and then like whether or not you can even read the labels from the taps is one thing. But then, yeah, so from your side, from the bartender side of the table then... Yeah. It's like how do you think you would actually find out what you're pouring? Have you seen anything about how they might do that?
Guy Thompson [00:18:30] That's a really good point, because I think there's two parts to this, which is that when you have the keg or the drink attached to the tap, you've got to keep track of what's there and then every time you swap it out. Now, on the front customer side, you've got the badges and the labels for those existing taps. And then if you've got something that's more pop up for a limited edition, you're either going to write on the front of it or you might might have a like a specially printed coaster, and you just insert that on the front and that's how you know which beer is being delivered on that tap or if it's a cider or something else. On the back side, because the servers just need to see pretty simply what's on there, it'll either be written or if it's more permanent, it's like a double sided mark - you'll have it at the top. But that doesn't always tell you what's still there, how much of its lift, which one is good? You know, part of it's an experience thing. So for me, when I'm ordering something, something that I've always thought about was that if I'm choosing between three or four different beers, I'm trying to make a decision visually based on the logo, the design, does it have like a rooster or a fisherman or like a trout?
Geoff Wilson [00:19:38] Or a dragon? There's one called St George back home in Hampton, Virginia, that's like got a huge dragon on a beer tap. So it's not just a little logo.
Guy Thompson [00:19:45] The whole thing, right? Yeah.
Geoff Wilson [00:19:46] The tap handle is probably really uncomfortable to hold because it's a freaking dragon with scales. Haha. But yeah, so it's visually gotcha *snap* it's right there.
Guy Thompson [00:19:52] Yeah. And either you're going to go for that and go, "Oh, I want the Dragon one," or you're going to be like, "That looks ridiculous, give me like beer for adults?" Haha like you'll just be turned off by that. So that's a really interesting thing about how much information do you need as a customer before you make a decision about what kind of beer you might like to drink? Do you want something that's really kind of blue or red or like quite traditional? Or do you want something that's softer with kind of grain or a lot of colors or all these different things? And so you're trying to make all these decisions as a customer, and that has nothing to do with what the product actually tastes like. So if you are a craft beer fan or you like the ciders or you want to try the wine that's on tap, you actually want to try it and sample it. And it's, ahhhh, it's impossible to do that when it's really busy because you've really got to, like, keep that throughput up to make sure the bar is profitable. And here's you trying to like try 15 craft beers ahaha.
Geoff Wilson [00:20:43] "Oh, can I sample uhh number two and number four?" Hahaha
Guy Thompson [00:20:47] "Oh, I'm not sure if I like one or two," and you're like, "Ahh dude just like order a pint and work it out." And that used to annoy you all the time in New Zealand is that I would like to... usually I would drink a smaller beer because I'd want to try two or three in the same night. So I wasn't going to have an entire pint of beer every single time? And, you know, you'd go to the front and they'll be like, "We've got a pint. Or, I can probably find some... I can put it in a tea cup for you or something?" Or like something else hahaha.
Geoff Wilson [00:21:10] So that's like an entire pint glass for like this little taster that you might not want, you know. Because environmentally, I don't really want to... I don't want to make them wash that glass again and stick it to the dishwasher and all that. And that's also if that bar that you happen to be at even understands that kind of... that ask, because I've definitely been to more of the traditional pubs, if you will, like in the traditional Irish pubs, like, "Oh, hey, I haven't had that one thing like a Kilkenny. I haven't had that forever. You remind me what that tastes like?" And they'll be like, "Taste? You just... I pour it and you drink it? There's no tasting involved here. Tasting. Oh, so you taste the entire pint. Thank you. That's thirteen dollars." Haha
Guy Thompson [00:21:45] Where I'm living in Australia is a state called Victoria. And what they serve here is something called a pot which is just a very small... it looked like a pint glass but it's much smaller. And I just checked and it is 285ml which is 10oz. So a whole pint I'm guessing is... how many ounces is 30oz... if we're trying to work this out for everyone? Ah, so a pint is 30 ounces for your American cousins, which is 570ml. So usually the kind of the half size pint glass that you see is more like maybe 350 or 400ml or something. So it's actually still a reasonably sized beer. A pot is actually quite a small one.
Geoff Wilson [00:22:26] And then also you made me think about this too - we're talking about ordering beers and just that experience of the customer side. But then there's not only what's on tap, but it's also the things in the chillers, like the fridges. Because there's a lot of times... I've been on a cider kick recently, like, I just got tired of drinking IPAs all the time because that's what most things are serving nowadays. And so I started asking for cider because generally they either have one on tap or maybe some other options. But it's that problem, too, that I have to go, you know, "What cider do you have?" And there... from the bartender's side, there's no list available immediately? They have to do this recognition. So possibly they've memorised what's in the case. Possibly it's the same ciders every week; depending on the kind of bar it might change. And so there's another opportunity right there for the server side is like: how can you help servers remember with as little minimal cognitive effort? If you want your servers to be getting throughput, like getting out beers, getting out beers with good service, umm you know, you need your bartenders and stuff and staff and everybody to be just less fatigued as possible. But that's the kind of problem is the more kind of things you add onto their plates, the more questions they have to answer, the more challenging things like, "Oh, what's the IBUs in this? What's the ABV of this or that? What the flavor profile?" They might know those things? They might not even like beer, but they're serving it or whatever it might be, whatever drink. But all of that's this cognitive load that's going to sit on them and it will wear them down overnight. So that mental load will affect the physical load. And so, you know, as a business owner, these things might be worth your effort. It might be worth trying to figure out what's actually really impacting my staff and their ability to keep functioning over six to eight hours or whatever the shift might be, because that will have a long term impact in your business metrics. But I think people often, at least I assume people don't often think that few steps ahead? It's just like, "How many customers by serving in an hour?" Not like, "What is impacting me serving more customers in an hour?"
Guy Thompson [00:24:18] This is one of the really fascinating parts about, I think, running small businesses and where analytics and data, usually we think they're really useful and helpful. But in a small business where you're just dealing with, you know, dozens and dozens of customers inside one environment, the conditions, you're dealing with every night are completely different. The staff that you have on if you're one person down, if one person is really tired, if there's an incident and someone drops something, or even just the weather? How much people are going to come to that venue that night. Are you at capacity or are you actually dealing with less people? Versus, if you think about serving food and alcohol on a flight, you've kind of got a captive audience and it's the same duration and you've kind of, you know, it's the same amount of seats, it's the same food, a few variations with the vegetarian versus whatever, but you're going to run out of certain things at a certain speed. Whereas I feel like running a bar in a restaurant, it's a different game every single night. And that's probably part of the appeal because it's a really exciting, dynamic and changing environment? Every day is completely different. But of course, that's exhausting as well. But you're right, making the menu really clear for the people serving so they can remember what it is. Having a big chalkboard that's got the prices and the descriptions on it. Printed out menus, whatever. And briefing the staff before they're there on the day as well. But of course, that still comes down to the passion of the individual person. Do they want to remember these things? Are they into beer? Do they want to explain it? Or are they just like, "We've got to two draft beers and an IPA and I think there's a cider... like, which one do you want?" Hahaha which is like, that's 2am, right? I don't care. I've just got to serve you something and we're going to get out of here.
Geoff Wilson [00:25:56] And yeah thinking about those things that still might wear them down, because I like that train of thought and I think it be a common thread with this stuff. So, yeah, you've ordered a beer. Now another bartender is trying to get that thing fulfilled. And we talked about glasses a little. So this is where I start... I start reflecting on my uni days of Industrial and Systems Engineering. That's what I finished with at least - there's a long story I'll probably go into over multiple podcasts later - but we studied like warehouses and factories. And so, like looking at Toyota, for example, because a lot of people have, it like... you know, how they've tracked one bolt from manufacturing all the way down to the door or the wheel or whatever it's in in the car? And there's all of these processes and systems and checks and status things and all the stuff that goes on. And so trying to think of that from the bartender side because why not? Like, this is what I see. Like, a lot of people talk about the stuff in the digital world or other industries, but I see this world around us as having so many ways we could use these same design methodologies and research methodologies, product design, product management, all project management, all of these kind of things, and noticing what can be changed and in just the everyday. So in this case, for a bartender, it's, "Okay, customers asked me for this thing. I have to remember where it is. I have to remember where are the appropriate glasses," because depending on if you are a crafty place, you might have different style glasses for different style beers. So you've got to go find those. You've got to maybe find ice if it's a cocktail or something. And so what is that path? And so my challenge to the audience is like, next time you go order something like that, just try to count how many different touch points that server has to go through? How many different counters? Who are they bumping into along the way? Because you think there's probably - depending on the bar you're at - there might be multiple people. So now you're trying to squeeze in and around each other. Maybe you're trying to pour, but the dishwasher is right below you, so somebody else needs a glass out of the dishwasher so you've got to, like, stand back and get it. And there's all of these things that I just... I actually don't have all of the observations on me. But is there any stories that have stood out to you in that sense or anything? Common things?
Guy Thompson [00:27:54] Yeah, there's an interesting point there that... there's a couple of parts to that that I was thinking about while you were talking. It's that, for me, when we're talking about design challenges and improving systems and the things that we notice, you've got the customer experience. You've also got the staff experience. And not only are those two sides that are really important to work out. How can you get more throughput in their business? Do you need an improved customer experience so that they can order quicker and they're happier and they keep coming back? Would you need an improved staff experience so they can actually deliver and transact with the customers faster? Or do you need to design the entire system of the service design so that the entire thing works better? And of course, you can have an idealistic process where it all works perfectly on this day, but you're dealing with humans inside a system. So it's not just a machine. It's not just, you know, if you observe the factory, everything keeps moving. You've still got people to sort of turn up on the day and then you might have a customer doesn't know what they want; a customer who's really loud and abusive. You might have a staff member who's just not really that interested at that particular moment - they're just tired and they just want a bit of a break. And I remember a couple of years ago getting a cocktail when it was really, really busy. And I remember after it arrived like seven or eight minutes later, I said, "Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Like, it took ages. I really didn't want to take up that much time." And and the person behind the bar said, "Actually, it was totally fine. I really wanted a break. So if you want to order another one, just let me know and I'll take about eight or nine minutes to make it." And I was like, yeah, fair enough. It's the middle of night and it's just absolutely heaving. If someone orders like one or two really complicated cocktails, you could go away and find the ingredients and find that weird spoon that you need and where's the thing that, like, wooden thing? Like you've just got to have all those parts ready to make the drinks really quickly. And if you've just been pulling plants and grabbing wine out of the fridge all night, and then you've got to stop and go, "Where's the blender? Have I got a grapefruit?" Hahaha you know, you've got to grab all those things if someone wants something unusual. So service design is based on like standards, operational efficiency, XYZ, this is what we're delivering on the menu. Soon as someone changes the menu and they want an exception, you're like, "Oh jeez, umm, I guess I can go... we've run out of that bottle of whatever it is, well I can go look at the back? And you're like, "Yeah?" and then they just disappear for five minutes haha.
Geoff Wilson [00:30:10] And how do you train them as a business manager to go, "Oh, well, we don't have a vodka, but have you tried a gin martini instead?" Like, "Let me tell you the benefits of this thing." And so that's all of this other training. And I love the fact you mentioned use cases because already the ones you mentioned of just not only the people, so individuals, but what things might happen in your area that you might not have considered in the perfect world? So the ideal world is we're running, we have 20 people in the bar at any time we have to service, blah, blah, blah. But what if your bar is located in a town or suburb near a big stadium? Well, you know, once every month or so there might be this massive event. You've got thousands of people coming by. And so it's trying to inject those other different types of use cases and scenarios into seeing how might this actually operate? How might we test this out beforehand? And there's ways to test that, I think. You know, you could always take over another bar? You can bring in friends and family to kind of, you know, run a trial day? You know, like people test software that way, right? They just throw a thousand, uhh you know, they just plug in a thousand hits to the server or whatever, or they'll have people testing it out. But why don't... if we don't already do that with physical things? Because there's some places I'm going to suspect they haven't done that. And that's a lot of what this podcast is going to be is I can tell when you guys never did test this out for like real world situations.
Guy Thompson [00:31:26] And that's a really difficult thing to build in, right? It's like, how much time can you spend stress testing your bar or your restaurant when you really just want to be up and running and actually operating? And of course, we know that any time a small business has got staff that leave or you need to promote someone into a position, responsibility, you got someone on holiday, you know, these are people you're dealing with. So and just like you said, if you've got an event or something strange that happens seasonally, it's really difficult to manage. But I think part of that appeal is that it's different every day. It is like having a party in this venue every day. And as a host, you want to come up with something that works really well for the people that you're inviting to the bar every day. It's part of the brand and you want to make sure that the staff are happy to work there because otherwise they're just going to get sick of it and go. So even if it's a really busy environment and for some reason you just have a corner or a location or menu or just a combination of factors that make your bar really, really busy, you've got to look after those staff and make it easier for them. Otherwise it's just going to be so much work, they'll burn out, and they just won't want to come back. So that's that balance between being really busy, being really popular, and having a queue out the door around the corner. But, you know, as soon as your team says we can't do this for like seven or eight hours straight, it's just crazy. Like a concert for eight hours, it would just be too much; you've got to kind of have these ebbs and flows so that you can manage things and you've got to replenish all of that stock. You've got to put everything back in the bar, attach the keg, grab some more ice, slice some lemons. You know, that's part of all the ups and downs that happen. A very organic process.
Geoff Wilson [00:32:59] And I mean, that's again, I think we... we won't dive into that aspect. But that's the essence of service design that you've just noted on there. It's not just that transaction with the customer, but it's all of the things that help that bartender do that thing. And this led me also to thinking about customer metrics for a second here and the fact of... it's not just the quantity served from the business's side, but, you know, it is that customer experience. And so, it's a question to everybody, how are you measuring that? And so I think of, well, what are ways off the top of my head that businesses could actually measure that customer experience? And... I'm not going to get to the methods like whether it's surveys or not, but there's things you could potentially look into, like what is the satisfaction of the service? What is... do they feel like it was delivered in a timely way? Did they feel hassled at all? You know, did they feel anxious about, like, the whole crowd of people standing around? Umm just generally asking, is there anything that could have been better? And a lot of that's just watching people for one, and seeing what they're doing, noticing twitches, noticing like nervousness, noticing actions and loud voices. And it takes that of being actually in that bar to observe it! And tomorrow, again, I'm going to do my research based on this. I'll go to the bar and when I'm standing in line, I'll notice what I'm doing, I'll notice what other people are doing, and I hope you will as well next time. I'm not quite done yet. But any thoughts on that? First, on metrics like customer wise?
Guy Thompson [00:34:15] Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point because I feel like that's the sort of thing that you get through that rapport connection with customers in the environment - that you're spending time at the bar you enjoy going to. And you enjoy going there because you've just sort of picked it and you know that you have a nice time there. But you'll notice every time that people come and go that they're completely different. You're not necessarily seeing these regulars. So I'm always fascinated as to why did people decide to come to this bar? Was it just convenience? It's foot traffic? It looks great from the outside? They saw it online? You know, their friends had suggested for them to come there? What's their route to purchase the, you know, how did they discover this product or this service? And then what's their experience when they're using it? That's the sort of feedback you get from the staff behind the bar. And also, if the manager is sort of hovering and chatting to people and seeing how they're going. The metric you want is that people keep coming back tomorrow and again and again and again. Whether or not they're exactly the same people who keep coming back all the time and you recognize them as regulars or if they're completely random people, the idea is if you can maintain good standards for the quality of the product you're delivering and the experience that people have, hopefully that will work and you still actually have a good business.
Geoff Wilson [00:35:20] And I think right before we wrap this up, this kind of topic, there is one other aspect I think it's always crucial when we talk about these things. It's the true end-to-end journey of this. And so we've been talking about bars. We've spent a whole lot of time about the ordering and up to the point of getting your drink. And I think a lot of businesses and teams and stuff stop short at that point. So, again, physical or digital, it's like, oh, cool, the customer got what they wanted, but that's not really the end of it because there's still the after-effect? Okay, they've got their drink. The transaction is officially over. Right? They've paid for it. The card's read, all that kind of stuff. But there's still things that happen; notably, well, what happens while they're drinking it? And I won't get into a lot of details but, you know, is it... do they need beer mats on the table? What if they spill the things and how is it going to be cleaned up? So kind of thinking about the use cases of that, right? Oh, they make a spill. It's not what they wanted. Can they complain or not? But I think the last one I really wanted to touch on was like the cleanup. So when they're done, do they know what to do with it? Because every bar is different. You know, a lot of them you might just leave it on the table and they might have a server to come by. Some bars might encourage you to go leave it at the bar themselves, like take your glass up. I think it really depends on... you know, I think customers might get a vibe when they're there of kind of like scanning what other tables are doing? At least I know that's what I've done sometimes. But it's also that use case of like thinking beyond just the transaction. So as a business owner and anybody else noting, I need to make sure people are cleaning this up, but where are customers dropping these glasses off? Are they stacking them up all along the bar so when people try to go to the bar to order, are there just mounds of glasses in front of them? Because we didn't plan on who's going to be cleaning that stuff up? It's that true end to end aspect of this. Any final thoughts on that?
Guy Thompson [00:37:00] That's a really good point, because I think what we're trying to get at a little bit here is around the idea of... in a digital business environment, if you like, managing a digital business, a lot of what you do is look at analytics, you look at performance, you look at speed because you don't have to replenish anything because it's a digital system. Someone's coming in, using it, and accessing a digital system, buying a product online. You might have to replenish stock, but it's not happening in real time; you've got a little bit more of a buffer to plan things and you don't have necessarily staff that have to deal with every single transaction. You might have customer support staff that can answer some questions, but you're really trying to design a system that a customer can take themselves through that entire journey and finish that transaction. So I feel like in physical service environments, you want to make sure as a manager that you're focusing on the customer experience side of what's actually happening in that environment. Because if your entire focus is just on micromanaging and stock replenishment and, you know, it's these little things that have more to do with the operational side of the bar or the environment you're in, that's not what customers came for - they wanted to have a good time. And sometimes there's going to be delays, there's going to be queues, that's going to be issues; as long as you can make people feel like they had a good time and you pay attention to how they felt during the process, I think that's going to guarantee that you're going to get more of those people coming back. And hopefully that empowers the staff working inside that service business to make more of those decisions about what needs to be done at certain times rather than waiting to be told what to do. And that's a very idealistic way to look at it? But I feel like that's what we're always looking to try and do if we talk about the customer experience and coming back and buying more? The lifetime value of that customer over many, many years? It's not that individual transaction and what just happened tonight, it's about how do you set this up for success over a long period of time.
Geoff Wilson [00:38:54] Very well said. And with that, Guy, I think we've thoroughly exhausted enough in this round of observations and maybe it's time to go get a round ourselves at this point.
Guy Thompson [00:39:02] I think we will. It's probably not going to be the last time we'll talk about bars and beers in the future, but you never know haha. We'll see how we go.
Geoff Wilson [00:39:07] And with that, folks, thank you for listening to this episode, and I hope that made you think of a few new things. If you'd like to continue this conversation or see examples of what we were talking about today, you can find and follow us on social media @EverdayExpPod or myself at @GeoffWilsonHCD. Please consider subscribing to your favorite podcasting app and giving us a five star rating so we can keep this going. And just remember, you don't have to have a fancy job title to start noticing and improving the everyday experiences wherever you work. Thanks. And we'll be on the air again soon.
