Full episode transcript below
Kicking off our new Local Designer series, Janice Chan joins Geoff to explore the most niche topic: utensils. But, if there's ever a topic worth finding design and business opportunities in, it's noticing the individual usefulness of the countless variety of these tools we use daily.
Highlights include:
💡 How cultural differences influence the design of our everyday tools?
💡 What business opportunities arise when designing products for longevity?
💡 How material choices impacts experiences and brand identities?
💡 How sustainable practices can save both the environment and material costs?
💡 Are sporks the ultimate utensil or an absolute failure?
Originally recorded on 27 Dec 2021.
Who is Janice Chan?
Janice is a fast rising UX and Product Designer in Auckland who shows a clear appetite for learning what makes for good design, backed with the unquestionable curiosity of a researcher.
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Subscribe and support the show by leaving us a rating or review on Spreaker, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favourite shows.
And as always, just remember, you don't have to have a fancy job title to start noticing and improving the everyday experiences wherever you work...
Episode Transcript
Geoff Wilson [00:00:05] Welcome to the Everyday Experiences Podcast, where we uncover potential design improvements in the world around us by exploring one frustrating experience at a time. I'm your host and Chief Observer, Geoff Wilson, based out of Auckland. And we're going to start doing something a little bit different here. Now that we've reached 10 episodes, every other episode or so, I'm going to start inviting more local designers and researchers on the show people at the design world at large might not know about yet. So in that respect? Joining me today in this inaugural local designer series is Janice Chan, a UX Designer also based out of Auckland. On today's episode, we're unpacking the experiences around utensils. Yep, I said it, utensils haha; specifically, you know, the ones that actually help us get the food into our mouths and not down our shirts! As mundane as utensils might sound, they're one of the most common tools we all use, so I thought they deserved some attention. Specifically, we're considering product specialisations like whether tools should be uni-taskers or used for many different jobs. We'll be talking about product sustainability and overall, discussing how might something as simple as a utensil fundamentally change our dining experience, potentially without us even realising it? I'm looking forward to talking about this with you, Janice, because you know, you and I actually talked about this in a café over a year ago. I think before I even recorded the first episode. So I've had this on my list for a long time. Hey, we're finally here doing it now.
Janice Chan [00:01:29] Oh man, I'm so excited just looking at the chopsticks and the utensils that I have right now on my table.
Geoff Wilson [00:01:36] And I'll put these in the show notes you can see by going on Instagram or Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, any of the sites honestly besides TikTok. Yet... I don't plan on dancing with utensils just yet, but if I get desperate enough, who knows what will happen? But on that note, yes, I'll put up pictures of what we're kind of talking about. And both of us at the very last minute before clicking record ran out into our kitchens and started just grabbing like spoons and things about a handful. So I've got a full array next to me. It sounds like you've got a full array next to you.
Janice Chan [00:02:04] Yeah, I went in busting into the kitchen and my partner was just like, Do you need help with the meat? Just bring the whole drawer for you. And I was pushing stuff out. Yeah, it's hilarious. So, yeah,
Geoff Wilson [00:02:19] and I realised you've got this crazy passion for spoons, apparently. What interested you about utensils and spoons specifically?
Janice Chan [00:02:27] I think I go through phases when it comes to things I use or I discover that really make my life a lot easier in terms of food and beverage because that's what my life is pretty much revolved around or had revolved around for quite some time now. So imagine me with crazy eyes talking about food. Oh my god,
Geoff Wilson [00:02:52] I mean, so specifically, I think you started talking about you having a collection of Japanese spoons or something of that sort.
Janice Chan [00:02:59] Oh yes, let me tell you more about that. So what I mean about collections is I like to explore the different types of spoons. OK, so how I got into this spoon collection with I found out from a friend of mine that she likes collecting teaspoons, actually, so just pure dessert spoons. And I found that really funny, so I thought I will maybe the next time I travel down to Australia. That was when I was still travelling for work. I would maybe look out for tiny teaspoons for her because she finds it adorable. And I think that kind of got me into discovering more about other different types of spoons as well. But that was the spoon effect. There was a knife face previously, but we'll talk about it next time. So yeah, I hopped onto the spoon bandwagon and I have wooden spoons, ceramic spoons, you good all stainless steel ones. There is a silicone one that I also have recently got, and they're pretty much all different shapes and sizes. And I think as my collection grew, I want it to narrow it down to what was actually useful for me and also had a cool history or background of what? Why is this spoon made this way? So my neck spoon, by the way that I'm looking for, is a seashell sort of spoon for caviar. Yeah. Oh yeah, it's it's pretty cool. I think it's made of Mother of Pearl, but yeah, it's it's specifically made for Caviar expensive stuff.
Geoff Wilson [00:04:52] I don't know what they're sort of like the specialisation aspect it specifically for caviar in this case. Yeah. So why don't we just have one type of. Or one type of spoon or knife?
Janice Chan [00:05:04] I think it might be. You might be due to the environment that we are in because dining is a whole experience, right? Dining by yourself, dining with a group of people, dining indoors and outdoors, I think it is very different. So the tools that we use are also going to be very different to your question, though I think the if it were dying like camping wise, if Spock would be really helpful, I reckon I hope you kind of get what I mean where it's a different environment, if it's a different situation indoors or outdoors. The culture as well, it plays a role. Well, what utensils we use. It's a lot of factors. I'm just realising you talk about it right now.
Geoff Wilson [00:05:55] So culture, what do you mean by that? Like, I never thought of culture. I mean, other than, let's say, chopsticks versus a fork outside of that level, surface level, what else do you mean by culture in that sense? OK.
Janice Chan [00:06:08] How you use a spoon would be totally different. I mean, I am from Southeast Asia, so let's go back to the beginning. How I was brought up to use my student and fork or knife was really different to how I use it right now in New Zealand, where it's very European. So my mom taught me, and I think lots of Southeast Asian people can relate to this, that your focus on your left head and your spoon is on your right hand and you actually use spoon to scoop stuff up like rice or gravy and dishes and. You you have that spoon is going to be shot on the edge as well because it helps the slice whenever things ingredients are side dishes into small pieces so you can use the foxes shovel into the spoon and you can use it to eat. I mean, use this pretty. So that's the first time I felt that, OK, this is quite a culture shock. I can't really cut with my weight anymore because people are going to look at me at a New Zealand or in Europe or anywhere else. But that's what I grew up with, using it as a dual purpose sort of thing to slice and to eat.
Geoff Wilson [00:07:28] I've never heard of sharp edged spoons. I mean, I've had some like, you know, you get like the plastic spoon and it take away. The thing cuts the side of your mouth that he try to get it. And that's how the Joker actually got those scars. Oh, yeah, really, really dumb. 12 year old joke there. Yeah. Anyway, but yes, I never heard of the went. Wow, that was that was the thing.
Janice Chan [00:07:50] I think it's not so sharp, but it's blunt enough to for you to. It's sharp enough for you to slice into it. So I guess it's really thin, I guess super thin, but it's not sharp. I don't know.
Geoff Wilson [00:08:02] Well, as you started talking about that, they did raise it in my head of. I've got a Korean family law and they are very particular around when you're supposed to use your spoon versus not such as well one like you never supposed to just stick your chopsticks, like just like, let them rest inside your rice. Like, never do that. Then I think also, I think we're not supposed to pick up rice with your chopsticks when you're eating with other stuff that you're supposed to use your spoon to actually pick it up, or it can be the exact opposite. But I guess from a cultural angle, you write that there is different ways of the unspoken. The thing the rules of using different utensils in different ways and different ways to hold them different things to eat with them or not to eat with them that are the faux pas as the thing you're not supposed to do.
Janice Chan [00:08:55] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's I was lucky enough to be able to hop around the world for a bit and observe. And I was really curious about not just food and beverage itself, but the experience and the way people eat and how they feel. So I think that's what I picked up on. Of course, for myself, eating a why they behave the way they eat. So what is it about the chopsticks? It's not just Korea, it is Japan, China or any Chinese Asian related thing where you're not supposed to poke your chopsticks down into a bowl of noodles or rice. So you're absolutely correct.
Geoff Wilson [00:09:39] And he's got one of those, too. I don't know about the other one there eating the rice. I don't remember what was supposed to use now. I think it's instinctual, though at this point. I mean that this is all completely useless for anybody listening to this kind of it is just instinctual now what I'm supposed to do. But it's weird when I'm actually trying to describe with words like how I'm supposed to use a spoon and which specific occasion because I've just become used to it over the years now, and I don't even think about it anymore. I just do it. But that also means there's bad habits to break as well.
Janice Chan [00:10:11] Hmm. Well, I think if you're eating by yourself, should be fine. You don't have to because I don't want a spoon for which you can eat it with your hands.
Geoff Wilson [00:10:24] Well, actually, you know what? I didn't expect to get there, but I think about that. I've heard before that, like any Indian curry, that they might not actually use utensils. They might just actually use, like their non-dominant hand to eat both the curry and rice together.
Janice Chan [00:10:39] That's right, yeah, that's that's absolutely right, and there is a reason behind. OK, so Singapore melting pot of lots of different cultures, so I guess me again, lucky me again. I do observe Indian families in my community. They actually even my mom. She was the one who taught me how to eat with my hands. So like me, she's quite curious about different languages, cultures, food and for the Malays, because my dad, Indonesia and my family, friends and Indian friends, we it's OK for us to eat with our hands, but just our right hand, not the left hand because. Fact check me everybody. In the past, we have one hand for eating and the other for wiping. Yup. If you know what I mean. So we never mix. Never. Because I mean, it's unhealthy and you might have a fever as such. But I guess, you know, as the times go by, we still stuck with eating with our right hand or just eating certain foods that belong to certain cuisines or cultures with our heads. So some Indian food, that's a rice dish or a roti dish like a flatbreads or dish with curry. I love using my hands. Oh my gosh. Pizza chicken wings. Always with my hands. So I think, yeah, I guess it's up to whatever you're comfortable with. If you're a load or if you're someone you trust,
Geoff Wilson [00:12:17] that is really interesting. Yeah, that's that's just cultures in general can totally change what you actually need, what's in your kitchen drawers. For example, if you're using your hands to eat the smallest dishes, which is nice, there's a bonus. That's right.
Janice Chan [00:12:31] Yeah, exactly. So and I love Korean spoons, by the way, those Korean long metal handles with the slim. I love those.
Geoff Wilson [00:12:42] Yeah, I'm holding it up on screen for everybody who won't see this
Janice Chan [00:12:47] elegant and they're long. So the hand we kind of reach into these pots and not knowing myself,
Geoff Wilson [00:12:54] that's what I was wondering why it's so long because I don't know the context. I mean, I mean, you know, I'll show these later. But there's the difference in like the bowl of the spoon is way smaller, but the handles like the heinous almost as long as an entire New Zealand regular everyday spoon.
Janice Chan [00:13:10] Yeah, exactly. I love those and check out my spoon. This is a stackable spoon, this spoon. But I got this from a Thai restaurant and this one, I got this from a Japanese place, so they look somewhat similar and it's supposed to hold more soup. So it has its purpose. So what I'm holding is what people would normally see in those dim sum yummy places. Chinese restaurants, where it is a fragile looking soup spoon, is recognisably exotic Chinese and it is made of ceramic. So it's quite fragile, of course, but it's sturdy. And I think this is me just assuming the reason why it's meat. But this material is because it kind of does not hold on to so much heat. Hmm. And as an Asian person, I do love soups, I love my soups, and I feel that this food, in particular, this short, stout spoon, holds a lot more volume in terms of the European soup spoon. And I think the reason why it is shaped with a hollow ish handle is because it could stick easily to reduce space. I love stackable things. I love waterproof things, and when I found out about the stackable stuff, I was like, Hell, yeah, I got a I got to get more of these
Geoff Wilson [00:14:45] and any given household not having any restaurant because any given household, you've got a utensil drawer, most likely right in the drawer. You basically are stacking things in. Maybe you find an organiser. Maybe you're the chaotic person who just has all of your utensils in a drawer and you just reach in and it's like a mystery and you don't know what you're going to get. I mean, that would be an interesting way to live life.
Janice Chan [00:15:06] Well, there will be great variety show. Like, imagine you have a you have a drawer full of random, like you say, utensils and just have to pick one like a scrabble in a scrabble bag and you have to. And then they will unveil an item of food for you and you have to eat the fastest, I guess.
Geoff Wilson [00:15:25] Oh, wow, OK, this is this is a trade. Actually, we don't care about. I don't know my trademark, but all that matters is give us some royalties for coming up with the idea here on this website.
Janice Chan [00:15:36] Yeah, I would watch that.
Geoff Wilson [00:15:39] But yeah, so you're spinning. You've got there. I know I've seen it. I think primarily in Japanese restaurants where like miso soup, what? They usually bring it out with that. So I've seen it there the most often. It's got like this really flat base. I mean, the bowl or the scooper area of the spoon itself almost looks like a bowl. I mean, it's like a full on. It's got sides that goes nearly straight up now in terms of, you know, try and actually dine with it. It does get a lot of liquid. So great for a really, you know, soups like miso and other really thin stuff, but the edges are so rounded that it's actually quite hard to actually scoop everything out of your bowl then. All right.
Janice Chan [00:16:14] You're absolutely right. And I think this is going to be linked back to which country you're from and we like how you eat. Moving on from that, um, let's let's go to the different ways of eating, because what you brought up with is really interesting. And I think that is also another thing that fascinated me about our next instrument of eating our chopsticks.
Geoff Wilson [00:16:41] Oh yes.
Janice Chan [00:16:42] So the question that your post was, you can't really get much after, you know, a little shallow bit of soup is left on your bowl. Like, it's really hot to get it, and it's totally understandable. Everybody's been there, and this is what I realise about the Chinese or at least how when I grew up, I would pick my bowl of soup up and just slurp it. For some cultures, I know it's not proper because you leave the bowl on the table, it doesn't move from the table, you have to eat from the bowl itself, that's all. But if you were to go watch, I don't know, kung fu movies that have our Studio Ghibli movies, they would lift their vessel to their mouth to eat if they only have one tool. So and this is what my partner pointed out to me, actually. I didn't notice it at first. Me growing up with my Chinese mom. Like, imagine this a rice bowl in front of me with my chopsticks. And if this is the only utensil that I have, I would take my bowl of rice, put it in front of me in my hand, and I would use my chopsticks and shovel the rice into my mouth. And if I want a little bit of, I don't know, egg or vegetable, that's all my bowl. I would use my chopsticks and pick it up. So it's quite simplified from my experience and from my culture that I've learnt and grown up to be. But the good thing about the Japanese is a love. I love their culture is that they make it easy for you, with that vessel, with that utensil, to eat whatever you have, whatever food you have in in that I don't know itself. So the experience is kind of tailor made for you. That's what I that's what I experience personally. And one more thing is that fun fact. All of all these chopsticks that I have right now. One which is a metal Korean chopsticks, which is quite flat, thin and flat. And for the Japanese chopsticks, it is also thin, but it's much narrower. It's much more narrow at the front with a little bit more grip. And the Chinese chopsticks, it's thicker and it's longer. And it's it's not really heavy for Japanese. It is really thin and narrow at the top because it's the Japanese people use it for eating fish a lot, and they are very healthy that they eat lots of seafood. So it's easier for them to pick up things and eat it for the longer ones. I think it's more of a communal Chinese culture where in the middle there is a rotating. What do you call that? Like a lazy Susan sort of thing? Yeah, yeah. So you kind of have to reach for for food, especially at wedding dinners, Chinese weddings. So, so the long, the long the length of the chopsticks definitely helps.
Geoff Wilson [00:19:49] I never thought about the reach in terms of the length of them. It always just seemed somewhat arbitrary to me. But now it actually makes a difference. Now that's why I talked about this, and I think moving from chopsticks to forks, I think on Wikipedia, I counted about at least 35 different types of forks that exist out there now as well. I mean, I've got we have three in our tribe and we've got like these, the giant serving four with giant tines and huge handle. We've got like a dinner fork, but it's got like a wooden handle. So it makes it really a pain in the arse again for doing dishes just because, I mean, the one handles thicker. So I mean, because it's not just a thin piece of metal. It gives you a lot more grip and it's nicer and it's actually easier on the hands. But because it's wood again, we don't want to put in the dishwasher because it'll just ruin it eventually. And then you've got your standard old, you know, regular, just completely metal fork all the way down. The one fork I don't have with me as I didn't when I moved to New Zealand, I really thought about bringing it. It was basically just it was a full metal fork, but the entire handle part was just like this really, really heavy and thick like spiral. And I loved it because I loved this heavy weight of something, and I think I went to a museum once. And unfortunately, there's no actually helpful things here that they were saying, like the weight of a handle. Might actually make you feel fuller, quicker or something crazy like that, but I should have done my research before this, and I haven't.
Janice Chan [00:21:15] Oh, it's okay. I'm learning so much from you about Ford's because I've never really paid attention to forks. But man, I think there was a saying about handles being important as well for knives because it helps, I don't know a centre of gravity science, physics stuff that helps the chef cut slice stuff faster or the balance of a knife is very important for slicing. So testing the nice for chefs initially is important is why I guess chefs are very particular with their knives. Very relatable to the handle thing you were talking about. And I think material wise. And this is also a little bit of what I've learnt, a the type of material that appears in restaurants and versus cafes and versus our own homes. Is very different because of what image we want to portray. So I think for restaurants or fine dining, they'll definitely use more metal knives. Oh, even in airlines. So because flying to and fro from New Zealand back home and for Singapore Airlines, they go back. When we were still flying before the pandemic days, they would mostly use metal utensils, whereas for maybe layover flights that are short distance, they would use the plastic ones. So I think could be a status thing because Singapore Airlines is like, wow, green premium. Sort of bread.
Geoff Wilson [00:22:53] Yeah. I'm trying to think of a lot of the main airlines have had the axe, just like plastic. The plastic cutlery, which again, I always kind of hate because he added, at least with the metal ones it does create from a business point of view overheads in terms of now, you've got to wash those dishes. I mean, hopefully they're watching it. I hope they're not just throwing away metal stuff one after another and thinking of service design. There's got to have this whole service now based around somebody's choice to use metal utensils versus not. That's a whole service design thought and trying to find a way to bring it back into our typical kind of design and research world. You know, it's one of those reminders that one little decision somebody might make, you know, some manager somewhere might say, Well, let's just add metal because it looks nicer or whatever, right? But it's all of this hidden constraints that come with it. How you collecting the metal at the end of it? How you washing it, how you repackaging it? So it doesn't, you know, get dirty on the way to that person? What if people are stealing chopsticks on the flights? And now you have to replace these and stuff, so you have to have extras? Yeah, it's a whole lot of additional constraints and things that come up just by a single decision on how to. Maybe it's a branding decision, like you said, of how to give status to people.
Janice Chan [00:24:05] I do have that answer for you. Oh, for the airlines that have metal or at least Singapore Airlines, they do have people washing and reusing it. Part of the sustainable cause thing, and I guess having something that's metal and not plastic sort of is psychologically makes me enjoy my food more. It's got a purpose. I feel like I've got purpose eating with something that's metal and something that's foolhardy. Rather than something that's plastic that might break if I were to press or my meat a little bit too hard, so I'm always a little bit more cautious with plastic utensils, but with metal I can just, you know, forget about it. That's my impression. I guess it boils down to what the company also wants, right? And they do focus a lot of on on customer experience and service design. Have you ever thought this is a question for you? Have you ever thought about the prongs on forks because there are three prong and four prong forks? And I remember someone telling me before a three pronged fork is not really a fork, and I don't know why, but
Geoff Wilson [00:25:27] they fortunately this. They're like, Yeah, right? Your fourth is not good enough is my first. Your focus, obviously less superiors than mine.
Janice Chan [00:25:38] I mean, if it's still does the same thing, it is a fork, I feel. But it got me thinking, what constitutes a fork?
Geoff Wilson [00:25:47] Hmm. Because I mean, I've seen I forgot what kind of food it is, maybe like oysters or something. There's like there's a two pronged fork, right? So there's little ones that usually try to poke at really something really tiny. You know, I don't know if it is oysters, but something of that nature, I guess.
Janice Chan [00:26:02] I remember using one of those ones, those two prong ones for fondue. Cheese fondue, ooo so good...
Geoff Wilson [00:26:11] Actually, I want to move more quickly to the one last key utensil, and I say key with a big, big quotation around it because you mentioned it at the very beginning, sporks - the controversial spork. I think you actually mentioned, you know, camping. It's all about the context. If you're camping than a spork is handy because it can kind of serve all purposes. But then, so that's what I was wondering... Is the spork actually the ultimate utensil? Or is it actually like the absolute failure? What what is your take on a spork?
Janice Chan [00:26:43] Hahaha I like how you phrased it.
Geoff Wilson [00:26:44] This is the this is definitive. This is going to answer this spork for everybody in the world as of this useless podcast
Janice Chan [00:26:52] Ahhh the campers are going to be are going to be interested in this, eh?
Geoff Wilson [00:26:57] Yeah, they're going to riot. After we say this, they're going to throw all the tents over and
Janice Chan [00:27:03] Heh heh. Well, I'm just thinking about the spork, what is it used for? If I were to go camping or if I would use a spork? Yeah, OK, let's let's go back again. If I were to use a spork, it would definitely be for a thing that I don't have to carry around a lot because I would definitely not use it at home. No matter how lazy I am, I would definitely not use a spork at home. So if I were to go to camping, what kind of food will they bring?
Geoff Wilson [00:27:35] I feel like the old camping thing is like a can of beans, right? Because a fork wouldn't work for beans. You know, all the other should be part of it would just slide right through. Then you can't really skip it out. There's too many tiny ones. But then I was thinking, sporks... sporks don't really scoop well, like liquids, like liquid stuff? You know, it's not the greatest for that. And then for forks, it's not really great either, because a lot of sporks just have like this really large like 45 degree angle tines on them, like the prongs. And so it's like you can't really stab something like a piece of meat with a spork. You can probably cut it, but you can't really stab it and pick it up like a piece of steak. That's why I keep thinking. It's like it seems like it would be kind of great, 'cause you only need to bring one thing with you and you can solve everything. But at the same point, it's pretty terrible in a lot of other ways at the same time.
Janice Chan [00:28:26] Absolutely. You're absolutely right. And I mean, it looks amazing. It looks again, right? Genuinely, it looks like it. It can be used for so many things. I used to eat so many things. The spork is not going to really be helpful for for noodles while cooking it and eating will be quite weird as well because the large surface area, as you say, is going to be a hindrance for me, even picking the noodles up and shoving it into my mouth, I might even hurt myself trying to shovel it in my mouth too quick. So noodles, it fails.
Geoff Wilson [00:29:09] OK, so sporks are out now. We can, we can get rid of them all hahaha.
Janice Chan [00:29:14] Yeah, and they mostly made of plastic too, aren't they?
Geoff Wilson [00:29:17] And some takeaways recently, a lot of places are doing like wooden, really thin, really basic kind of wood takeaway stuff. That way you're not actually just creating tons of plastic and just, you know, single use plastics and throw it away. At least if it's wood, it's a little bit more sustainable than the other. And I think I actually have seen some sporks recently that have been, yeah, but just wooden ones that you get it like a takeaway shop.
Janice Chan [00:29:42] Oh, nice. So this shows like how how long ago I used a spork, but I'm glad there's a... they are making a difference right now in terms of material. What type of... Thinking about the types of materials that can be used? I love bamboo. Oh, great. Have you use any utensils that's got to do with bamboo before?
Geoff Wilson [00:30:05] Not that I actively know of?
Janice Chan [00:30:08] The reason why I brought bamboo up it, it is. It grows like a weed. It just is kind of uncontrollable, but it has a potential of producing food and utensils like in tools. So, yeah, people eat bamboo. People use bamboo for utensils, bowls, cups and everything straws. Even so, I think I think bamboo is a good way of. Yeah, this is another type of material. Apart from wood, because as a kid, I was taught not to use too much paper bags or anything paper related because we are destroying the rainforests for the use of these paper bags. But now it seems like it's the other way round. We should should cut down on using plastic, which I totally agree with single use plastics, especially, but nothing's really talked about. This just wouldn't think it seems like it's been gone. It's it's disappeared. And it and maybe it could be because we might be using more recycled wood now. It's really strange.
Geoff Wilson [00:31:21] That's totally good. I mean, I like the messaging and then so it's not only being considered if what you're using and what you're taking. So I know some takeaway shops around here have also started having a little tick box when you check out that says, do you need utensils or will you bring your own so way? If you don't, they're not just going to chuck, you know, napkins and like four forks or forks or whatever it is. Plus the ones or wooden ones into your bag if you don't actually need them. If you're just going to get the KFC to go and you're taking it home. But you know, you don't actually need all that extra stuff, then why take it? Just to throw it in the rubbish. So it is quite nice to see a lot of places around here slowly doing that. Yeah, I hope it's I hope to practise the moves elsewhere to the tourist areas I was thinking of one. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up accessibility, at least in a little bit. Do some video searching in terms of, well, if you don't have hands, let's say, how do you actually use utensils like, what do you do instead? So I've seen some quite interesting videos of like this one person named Tisha Unarmed, and she basically kind of basically picks up plates and even forks like between her chin and her shoulder and kind of balances the middle of the fork on the edge of the plate so she can push the handle down with her shoulder and kind of like, bite it officer's propped up. So like the use of all of your other parts of you, or maybe your feet to lift utensils and things up or lifting plates up. There are ways, you know, obviously people stuff to eat, and so there are ways people have figured out the challenges of it
Janice Chan [00:32:53] in terms of accessibility. There is one thing that I kind of want to add on because it's something that I saw that really speaks to my heart, the older generation, as they find it a lot more difficult to do the daily routine, even eating might be quite challenging for them. So lifting something because I guess we tremble a little bit so they can't really get much. Even people with Parkinson's. There was this kid. I think he got the inspiration from someone around him that has this challenge and he created this school and for that person itself so that they can eat a little bit better and you don't have to worry about spillage. And it kind of works like one of those gyroscopes for cameras. Oh, nice. Yeah. Or a chicken's head. How? How it always stays still, if you even if you move the body. Yeah. So that's how the spoon works as well. No matter how much the handle moves, the ball will stay still at school. Easier to lift it to the face. It is really cool, and I think that's forward thinking from the kid itself. And I'm just amazed. How these ideas come about sort of just living with that person, but just observing that person, having that like form of difficulty in creating something that would help them long term, even if it's just a spoon.
Geoff Wilson [00:34:34] I mean, that's that's the whole point of what we do is for work, right? And why we're so inspired by all this stuff and why we hope to inspire other people to see that. It's just that you just innovation. There's nothing more than watching people and seeing what difficulties they have in even the most miniscule thing and trying to come up with a way to make that a little bit better. That is innovation. Innovation is not some magic thing that people in the room have to be workshopping and brainstorming to do something crazy. It's just like that a kid would be watching his grandmother like, you know, struggling to eat something and not getting enough food, falling off her fork as she wavers it into her mouth and going, Hey, well, what if I said counterbalanced it? Or did some kind of gyroscope thing that always keeps it steady? That's that's pure innovation right there. It was just all it took was watching somebody and the empathy that we always talk about design of just having empathy for somebody else and going, Wow, I want to help make this person's life just a little bit better than it is today. That's beautiful.
Janice Chan [00:35:31] Yeah, it is
Geoff Wilson [00:35:32] I think talking about this, you know, accessibility and and just comfort in watching people, it reminded me of not an eating utensil, but we are closely related in terms of at least preparing food of the Oxo brand, kitchen tools such as scissors and knives and vegetable platters and things like that. They've got a good grips line. They're the very familiar ones, The O.C. in many stores where, you know the handle is this huge black like rubber handle, as the history goes, is the founder of this Oxo brand basically just watched his wife with arthritis in her hands. If she is finding it very hard to use your kitchen tools and so he saw a clear need at the time. This is way back when, like his wife, is having a hard time holding onto it. So he basically just changed the handle. He just said, Well, what if I make this nice soft grip rubber handle for her? That's a lot bigger and then making her life a little bit easier, designing for one person and finding out that everybody else in the world can actually benefit that. And with a beautiful of all accessible things, it's not only beneficial for somebody with arthritis, but anybody who doesn't want to get their hand cramped up using it can now use it. It's you solve for one saw so many. It's amazing.
Janice Chan [00:36:46] I completely 100 percent agree with you. And and yeah, it's it's the discovery phase of that, isn't it?
Geoff Wilson [00:36:55] So safety and design of being conscious about who's using it and how they're using it and trying to pay attention to those things? So it's not necessarily the safety angle, but as the story again told me a year ago that I really liked when I think about the sustainability of these, these instruments and tools and you had seen some documentary, apparently around scissors, they were handed down generation to generation?
Janice Chan [00:37:21] Yeah, it's it's a beautiful one. This is me having a chat with my, my partner at, I think about how she has these pair of scissors again been passed down through generations. This sharp, they're well-made. And it has become an heirloom itself, and it got me thinking. These things are expensive, but they're fixable. And these companies actually want you to return. To like if you break something or if something comes loose, like return it to them, they'll fix it for you and send it to you back and even maybe polish it and it's stuff that is usable. And for a long time, and you can't pass it down to people if you take good care of it, it's. It might be a cultural thing as well, because I do like I do like investing in things that work and things that are useful and things that have a long shelf life and that are made well. So I recently watched another video about Rolex watches and how expensive it is. And even though it's not related to utensils at the moment. It initially did not come out as a premium brand. It just was to give the public a piece of tool, a watch that they can use it whenever they can. It's waterproof. It's pretty much almost accurate. It takes about a year to make a watch and the amount of detail, attention and care goes into that. Into that product or tool is what I like investing no matter how much it is, because if it lasts long, I don't have to keep buying things and I think to me that is sustainable for my daily life and. It's not really what we're seeing now, I mean, we're trying as humans are trying to be sustainable, but I think I would definitely spend a little bit more time and effort into caring for the things that I have that are expensive because it's so much more worthwhile.
Geoff Wilson [00:39:47] I was thinking about, again, the stuff that I've had next to me. A lot of the folks and stuff are just like. I mean, if they get bent too far or something, they edge tuck away. It doesn't feel like something worse. That's like you really need to keep. But then in terms of your stories and in this story of passing down a a sharp, winnable pair of scissors, you know, some things come to mind that I'm always wondering what the business angle. And I think you've made a good point that it's not just that you need to always have new consumers or that repeat consumers coming in and buying your stuff over and over. There's this other approach that you could take it to, or how do you really make it personal? How do you make it sentimental? How do you make it a thing that people are proud to own and proud to have, and maybe they're not replacing it every few years? Frustratingly. But maybe they're now telling their friends about it. They're actually being this brand advocates that those companies probably want and telling you, Oh my gosh, you've got to go buy this brand because I've never needed another season in my life. Or maybe they want to start buying multiple. Maybe they're going to start putting one upstairs in the house and and one if if they have a downstairs, maybe this one in one drawer, their kitchen utensils drawer versus one like their craft store or whatever they might have. And then there's other things that business could do to give money just the same as well. What if they started engraving it? I mean, if this is going to last that long, right? You know, you're not going to throw those away. So that's an extra service now paying an extra few bucks to engrave it with something that you can pass down. Or you mentioned now they can be re sharpened. Well, what about that of a sharpening tool that now that's an accessory that you can sell, so you sell, then the one pair of scissors that last forever, or the one knife that's made to last forever, but you give them you sell the accessories around it. Maybe it's the service to sharpen it every year. Maybe it's the sharpening block. You can sell them on the side and ship it to them. There's so many ways to make something sustainable and build a business model around it, rather than just the planned obsolescence of creating something that's only going to last so long and then get dull that people are going to chuck it away and just go to the store and buy the exact same thing again because the cheap one?
Janice Chan [00:41:59] Yeah, I I also think that to it, to your point, people actually start focussing on purchasing long like with longevity, with sustainability, for example, the scissors or even knives these craftsmen would increase or that there would be a need for these crafts people. So that ultimately would create jobs as well. And I remember in certain cultures, they have high respect for these craftsmen. I feel something that not all machines can do, but it really is depends. It really depends. Again, isn't it on what our mindset is and whether we need it almost immediately? Can we wait for shipping from either Europe, Germany, England to get us that scissors, that pair of scissors? And it kind of also reminds me that is very similar to fashion, isn't it? It used to be leather or mostly organic things, but now I mean. It's fast fashion that we're trying to stop and also hope that we're not being green washed by these companies. I feel that it's quite interconnected thinking out loud right now, like how whatever we're talking about affects different types of industries in our lives to.
Geoff Wilson [00:43:29] I think maybe this is a good way to wrap it all up. That one little decision you made can have an untold number of positive or negative consequences. So on one angle, it's that innocuous decision or seemingly innocuous decision of, well we want to use plastic versus metal forks on an airline. And what happens for that? Down to this of thinking of longevity and the kind of materials and choices you use in terms of that? And what business models you can actually build around sustainability that aren't immediately obvious. You could just meet the forks that everybody just buys and those away and forgets about and doesn't care about people stealing versus something that is special to you, something that you you actually do carry around in a case. And yeah, hey, now they're paying for that case as well, so that... there's so many ways to do things differently than just what seems obvious on the surface, anyway. Yeah, I think that's I think that's a good wrap up in total. Is there any final thoughts you have on this?
Janice Chan [00:44:30] Well, can you can. Do what I do apart from just like, OK, no phones at a table; like try and leave your phone alone while eating. They call it mindful eating, I think. Apart from just paying attention to the food, pay attention to the tools that you use, even the vessels that you're eating from because I think you'll make your experience much more enjoyable.
Geoff Wilson [00:45:00] Well, thank you, Janice. I think we will close this one out. And...
Janice Chan [00:45:06] Thank you for having me.
Geoff Wilson [00:45:06] With that, folks. Thank you for listening to this episode, and I hope you see the design of your kitchen drawers in a new way and the things inside them. To see examples of what we were talking about today and to keep this conversation going, you can find and follow us @EverydayExpPod or myself @geoffwilsonHCD. Janice, what about you? How can people find or follow you?
Janice Chan [00:45:27] You can follow me on Twitter, I am @eatllustrator. E A T llustrator. So that's Eat and Illustrate.
Geoff Wilson [00:45:37] Eating has been the theme today, for sure. Please consider leaving us a rating and subscribing to the show on your favourite podcasting app and checking out our previous episodes. And as always, just remember, you don't have to have a fancy job title to start noticing and improving the everyday experiences wherever you work. Thanks. And we'll be on the air again soon. Cue the music.
Post-credits bloopers
Geoff Wilson [00:46:26] I mean, again, we've talked about the service design just then versus the design of an accessible thing for your grandmothers or whoever else might have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. Err sorry, I'm going to repeat that, not Alzheimer's! That's like forgetting... Alzheimer's is like,"Where are my folks? Who are you?" hahaha.
Janice Chan [00:46:46] Haha. "What do I do with this thing?"
Geoff Wilson [00:46:49] Ahh yeah. "What was I eating again?"
